Cold open
The best way to start is to steal like an artist. I say that because a lot of TikTok is like copying each other. Like that is the truth of it. I always say our TikTok is like a sitcom. Everything we put out there is an episode. I would say you have to hire troublemakers. troublemakers. are the ones that are causing seismic cultural shifts.
Short form video has never been more important and I wanted to cover a breakout success story of a company that’s leveraged TikTok and scaled it insanely well. And for me, it was obvious we had to feature Duolingo. Duolingo’s TikTok has scaled from 50,000 followers in 2021 to 8 million today. I’m thrilled to sit down today with Duolingo’s global social media manager, Parvez, and the mastermind behind their TikTok success, revealing her lessons, tips and tricks to killing it in content and specifically scaling Duolingo’s TikTok following to 8 million followers today. And speaking of the immense power of short form video, did you know Olipop took their sales from 3 million to 200 million by doubling down on video? But wow, it is expensive to do well and it takes a shitload of time. That was until captions came into the world. Honestly, captions is one of my favorite tools. I use it here at 20VC VC all the time because it makes creating videos so easy and simple. They have the most incredible array of tools from advanced captioning, which I use for all the videos we do, to revolutionary dubbing tools, allowing teams to take one ad and repurpose it even into multiple languages. Me in Spanish, it’s a masterpiece. Those are my words. Other people probably think differently. You can also automatically cut out pauses, add relevant zooms, and generate custom royalty free music and more, all with just a tap. Captions is used by over 5 million people and businesses, and it’s the best. Try it out now at captions.ai. And speaking of game changing tools like captions there, we could not live without Miro at 20 VC. Is it just me? Or do projects so quickly become disorganized, cluttered, information all over the place? And that’s where Miro comes in. Miro streamlines workflows, organizes information, and it allows the team to just align in seconds. How do we use it at 20? Well, for every show, we take 10 references per guest. That’s about 40 pages of notes per show. Simple, right? Not really. It’s taken across several different formats. It could be email, call, WhatsApp, iMessage. Well, Miro is our home for all of this content and data. Now I find that information with ease all in one Miro board, one Miro board per guest. It’s so simple and so much time and energy is saved by doing this, and the team works better as they can see what each other has added to the board. It’s a total game changer. So find simplicity in your most complex projects with Miro. Your first three boards are free when you sign up today at miro.com/podcast. That’s three free boards at miro.com/podcast. You have now arrived at your destination. Zaria, I am so excited for this. As we said beforehand, I’ve been a fan for a long time. So first, thank you so much for joining me today.
Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Not at all. This is my favorite type of show where I write a schedule and we’re definitely not gonna stick to it, but you know, we should have it anyway. So tell me, you know, we see Duolingo’s content today. It’s incredible. You’ve nailed it. But how did you first get into the role with Duolingo doing content? Let’s start there.
Yeah, I think it’s not a typical story, but also feels pretty typical. I was a pandemic graduate, so I graduated in 2020. and I did advertising and marketing in school, so it was kind of a natural next step. But as for Duolingo, I actually wanted to be in a super small city. I did not like New York. I did not like agency culture. So trying to figure out, like, what does that mean for me? And Duolingo, like, popped out to me mainly because the mission of Duolingo is really near and dear to my heart. It’s to make education accessible, but what’s even deeper to me than that mission of what it is is that it was an inherently diverse place. Like it’s been founded by two immigrants, like people who just you have to speak different languages here for the app to exist. And so you’re around people from different cultures, different backgrounds. And just to clarify, you don’t actually have to speak another language to work here, but like around you, like you’ll hear it and you’ll see it and you’re a part of that. And that. comes with the culturals and different cultures and all that stuff together. So, yeah, that’s what brought me here. And then for content, if I’m being honest with you, I started off for a whole year of just doing normal, like happy Earth Day posts and things you’d expect a language learning app to do. And it wasn’t until a little bit later that we started taking more risks and creating the content we do now.
What took it to the next level? Because there is bluntly a huge amount of content, is happy Earth Day, happy Sunday, happy Mother Day, whatever it is. When did you go, I can be a little bit different here?
I think it was the naivete of being in an office for the first time. I always say the reason why our TikTok was so successful is because I didn’t really know all that much about advertising, if I’m being honest. I was a new grad. I kind of had fresh eyes on it. And I remember walking into the office and this is like after pandemic, I don’t know. But when the office opened for the first time and things were coming back to normal, and I walk into the office and there was this big green owl, which is the suit we all know and love today, just sitting in the corner. And I was like, that is so freaking weird. Like, why is it just there? No one’s reacting, whatever. And at the time, it was just meant for like people team stuff where they go to recruiting events and then the owl pops up. And I love TikTok on my own. Like, I was already consuming it. And I was like, what if I just make like a funny piece of content off of this? And it was nothing crazy risky. It was nothing like I would say to the extent of what you may see Duos TikTok do today, but it was just different. It was unexpected and no brand was doing it yet. And I think that was kind of our insight And it was like these small human moments that I think has made our TikTok kind of blow up.
I to start kind of top down because I think a lot of people look at content that does very well and goes how how do I recreate it? How do I do the same? And I think a lot starts with actually before we get to the content, the platform itself. You were of given this open purview. Why did you decide TikTok was the platform that you wanted to spend the time on and was the opportunity for?
I think there’s two ways to think about it, honestly. I think one, I grew up with TikTok. Like, that was what I was doing and using and, like, grow up as in, like, being in college. like, that’s just what I was on. And like, during the pandemic, I was just on it. And this was a native platform to me, so I already of knew how it worked and how it functioned and what worked well and what didn’t work and what made me laugh. And then I think the real tipping point for me was when TikTok mentioned that they had one billion users, and this was in September 2021. And I remember so distinctly thinking, if people are on TikTok, they’re not on our app. So how do we bring people back to our app? And I’m a firm believer, and I know our CEO said this too, that I don’t think like Babel or Rosetta Stone or other language learning places are our actual competitors. Like our real competitors are like TikTok and other social media platforms that are like taking the attention away from doing your daily lesson. So how do we use that to our advantage? How do we bring the daily lesson or the push notification to TikTok and bring people back to us?
So I agree with you totally on the competition. I just say Taylor Swift is my competition and then I feel incredibly worried. But I I totally agree with you in terms of that perspective. think I the most important thing is, like you said that you have to be a consumer of it because you you figure out what works. Can I ask to what extent do you think TikTok is an art or a science? We have a TikTok team specifically here, and they think it’s a science and they’re like, oh, we need this music and this font and this hit rate. Do you agree or is it art?
This is such a cop out answer, but I think it’s a mix of both. And I’m saying that because if you don’t have the science and you don’t know how the science of the app works, your art is not to go very far. So when we’re hiring for our teams, for example, like I don’t really care about your advertising experience. I don’t really care about like what agencies you worked at. I care more about if I give you like a concept, can you find a trending audio, Tell me what to film, bring it together have a good caption copy and good like text on video that’s like entertaining. And I think that has been more the litmus test if you can like actually create entertaining content. And it’s a mixture of both. Like you cannot create entertaining content if you don’t know the trends are because it might be a little bit too niche for someone to understand. But if you’re not a creative writer and you don’t know how to make something punchy in five seconds, even if you have a trending audio, it’s not to do well.
And I think that’s a really good answer, the way. That wasn’t a cop out. VCs give you much more cop out. answer. My my question to you is you mentioned trending audio there. I’m constantly stuck in this question of do we copy the trends of what works, this font, this music style, or do we try and innovate and come up with our own creativity concepts and push boundaries in that way? do you think about copying what works versus doing authentic and different?
The best way to start is to steal like an artist. And I say that because a lot of TikTok is like copying each other. Like that is the truth of it. When we first started, these trends were us just copying what we see and obviously giving credit where it’s due. But that is the nature of the platform. That’s how these like voice audios go viral. It’s me saying it in one scenario, somebody else saying in another scenario. And I think this idea of stealing like an artist is okay and appreciated on TikTok where it’s like, this is your spin on it. And I think it’s a great way to start, honestly. like, I feel like if you’re looking for trending audio, like click on the audio and just see what people are doing and see where you can bring your person into that. However, I think that’ll only get you so far after a certain point, once you’ve reached your virality, once people kind of get the okay, they understand TikTok and how it works. They’re looking for more storylines and more things that you can bring. So I always say our TikTok is like a sitcom. Everything we put out there is an episode. Some are amazing and go super viral. Some are just there to build the storylines, but it’s something that can live and function as short form video content, even if it was to leave TikTok. So some of the storylines, Duo and like legal Steve, our general counsel, are always beefing. Duo loves Lipa. We have Lily, this emo girl that hates Duo, but somehow is always roped into Duo shenanigans. And it kind of exists and people who get the lore get it. and we’re always trying to build lore. We just did a mascot intervention where we invited Scrub Daddy and the Teletubbies and we remade iconic old things. We did a seance with Scrub Daddy, just fun, innovative things that will get people to be like, oh yeah, I remember when Duo did that.
I like it. So you have. the thing I like with the continuing storyline is the resonance that it builds and kind of the relationship that you feel to it. The question that I have then with it though is like, for net new followers, which you have so many of, how do you make them feel a part of something when they’re like jumping into season two, not season one?
I would say that we literally just drop them into the deepest part of the ocean and say swim. I feel like as marketers, sometimes we get in this mindset that like we have to dumb it down and make it as simple and as explainable as possible because people are not to understand it. And I feel like we have to have more trust in our users and our followers that they know to close the loop and can bring things together. And I know this isn’t exactly your question, but when we first started our account and we were building content, a big question that we had was like, okay, if we’re doing silly stuff that’s like Duo crushing over Lipa, how are people gonna know that we’re an effective language learning app? Like, they’re gonna think we’re silly and we don’t, we don’t, have any efficacy. And I think for me, the response was always like, we are able to be silly. We’re able to do this because people know we have a good app that when they go and they go to the after they see our TikTok and they’re a converted user and they go to the platform and they’re actually learning a language, they recognize that you can be the thing and also subvert the thing. You can be funny on TikTok like you would with your friends, but you could also be serious when you’re learning in school or learning and working in work or being on the app. And I think it’s trusting that our consumers are much smarter than we think they are. And even if we make them dive in deep, like, they can figure it out. They’ll scroll back if they want scroll back. If it’s entertaining enough, people will figure it out.
Does it matter if the video doesn’t? If I can watch a video on TikTok and I’m like, I have no idea that Duolingo is a language learning app. Does that matter? Because the truth is you’ve built the relationship with me and I’ll watch the next one because I like the first one. So does every video need to tie back?
It doesn’t. and that’s what we’re learning is that like, people don’t come to social to learn a language and very few people actually care about our app when they’re on social media. If we’re lucky, people will be like complaining about how they got a C minus in Spanish and how much they hate language learning. Maybe they’ll insult our app or they’ll just confuse us with, like, Lipa. Like, that is what people are talking about when it comes to social language learning. Like, they genuinely very few, some must, but very few people care what Duolingo has to say about the new slang word. Like, it’s just not something that they’re going to social for. They’re going for either a break or for entertainment, so we need to grab them and meet them where they are.
How do you come up with the ideas? You mentioned the crushing on Lipa there. I have to admit, I I would be joining that. You mentioned there that you know, the legal officer and the relationship there. Do you sit in a room with a creative team and a whiteboard? What does that process look like?
The truth of it is it started with there was only one full time employee for social and that was me. These were genuinely just funny tropes that I thought existed in our office. I think Duo is a very quirky place in general. People have confused Duo with Lipa for ages, and that’s been on our community, like within Twitter. And I always say, for example, for that, like the comment section is your social brief. Like, people will say stuff, like lean into that. Like, if they’re telling you they want see X, Y, z, give them X, y z and it can be that simple. And that’s where Lipa came from. It’s always been a joke because Steve was also for a very long time, the only lone general counsel at Duolingo and people used to just call him legal Steve And like legal Steve we’d have to in with him. It just became a funny natural thing that a menace like Duo would not jive with a lawyer.
What does that ideation process look like now? It was just you when you saw fun things in the office. Is it the same now?
It’s definitely more, I would say, buttoned up than how you’d expect it to be. We now have a head of social and we have a social coordinator and another social media manager. That’s four of us. And it’s honestly like a Slack channel of dumping, this is trending. This is my audio, this is trending, and this is my thought. This is what I think we should caption. This is what I think we should do. And I think the biggest thing about the ideation process for us is that it’s not sitting in a room and brainstorming. I saw this trending audio. I took the suit. I filmed this. What are your thoughts? And it’s just going for it and creating possible the content won’t see the light of day, but actually having that visual thing and kind of people working in silos so we can hit their niches and the fandoms they’re part of, and then come together to see how we hit those different parts of the Internet is how we actually brainstorm and create.
I have so many questions. Could you have done this and had the creativity without being in the office? It sparked ideas, imagination. Would it have worked so well remotely?
I don’t think so. And I say that as someone who is a homebody and loves being remote. I mean, if you have a suit, maybe. But having the suit and just the random quirkiness and the thingness, like the things around our workplace is what’s made it fun. And like, even we’re like, oh, we need a microphone. Like, a lot of times we’re like, no, no, don’t do a microphone. Like, use a water bottle as a microphone for the TikTok and like, stuff like that where it’s just like, we want use what we have and we genuinely believe in being scrappy and like creating the content ourselves.
I think it’s so important to see that in person. do you feel the pressure now with new releases in terms of content releases? Because you have you seven plus million followers. Do you feel pressure to post?
I would say I do feel pressure from our marketing team in general. I’ve been able to, like, succeed on a lot of different parts of, like, going viral and doing all this content stuff and doing this with you, even talking here with you today. I’ve started on such a high note that I would say I’m more dealing with that internal thing of, you know what? It’s okay if a video doesn’t go viral and it’s okay if we have to go back to the drawing board.
and totally is okay and we’re gonna get to that kind of personal trajectory because trust me, I have many thoughts on it. I I’ve struggle with some elements myself. You mentioned like elements that are trending that you’re kind of taking account of and putting in, you know, Slack channels. Is that including, like what’s happening on Instagram or what’s happening on Facebook or TikTok? is it just channel by channel like our channels transferable, I guess, is what I’m asking.
It’s so hard, man, because sometimes I feel like it is and other times I’m like, it’s absolutely not. But right now we’re focusing a lot on TikTok reels and shorts. And I would say that TikTok and reels feel more connected, and shorts just feels like a new ballgame. Like YouTube shorts feels like something like my 13 year old nephew would be posting posting from the back of his middle school bathroom. Like, it’s just so confusing And I’m like, I’m trying to understand Gen Alpha, what goes there. But I would say like the trends are very different. The content’s very different there. So we’re still trying to crack that nut. And a lot of things that break the internet and trend on TikTok don’t do well on Shorts. So
Do you simply rip and replace for reels and for TikTok or do you like change format, style, audio, font? Is it rip and replace or is it slightly amended?
At this rate of where we are, I would say about 75% is rip and replace. And what the other 25% is us trying to actually think through, like, what would work better on reels versus TikTok. And like our way to alleviate that is we kind of broke out, like, who’s working on which channels by like generational divides. So we’ll have like a little bit of elder millennials doing Instagram while we’re doing TikTok. And then we’re talking to like our interns to help us with shorts. And it’s kind of like how those age gaps and how we consume media actually dictate who’s posting on what. I might make something that’s super TikTokable and super fun, but when I suggest it to post on reels, I’ve had an upper millennial be like, that’s not gonna hit. like fix and adjust this, maybe change how this looks. And we’ve done that and then it does really well. So they’re like small iterations of the same concept.
That’s so interesting. So you have so I agree with this, but you have people per channel, not people who work across all channels.
Yes, exactly.
The biggest problem with content teams is they build no verticalized knowledge in each channel. and so they just work across all of them and they’re like, okay at all of them.
Yeah, exactly. So it’s and I mean, obviously like we’re still a pretty small team, we’ll be stretched across whatever we need to be stretched across. But it’s really helpful having almost experts in each channel, like, talk to us and give feedback. And same for us. Like, I’ll be an expert in TikTok and give feedback to my role manager who might be making some content.
Do you have a good read on whether a post will go viral? Are you like, I know this one will and it does? Or like, debatable, but we’ll see. Do you have a good read or is it very spontaneous?
I wish I had a go viral button so bad. I would say that every time I feel like I have a good read, the algorithm changes and I’m back to square one. And I feel like myself particular on our team, I’m notorious for being if I get too into a project, I’m convinced it’s gonna fail. And I like don’t step back and I’m like, wait, it’s actually funny because you get so into like the editing and the nitty gritty and you’re hearing it over and over and over in your head where you’re like, this is just not funny anymore. So I don’t have a read and I’m still learning and playing it by ear as a lot of us are. I think though I do have a general idea of when something is really going be successful and I think that’s more of like the genuineness is like, did I have fun creating this? Like, was I laughing when I was doing this? Was this something that I find entertaining? And if I didn’t work at Duolingo and if I didn’t give a crap about brands, would I to post this in my group chat? And that’s of my litmus test of like, is this entertaining or good enough? And I also send some pre content to my 13 year old nephew to be like, what are your thoughts on this? And like, his response is always brutally honest. So that’s also a good helpful thing to see. So having people that will actually consume the media outside of your brand to of review content has also been super helpful for me.
How important do you think consistency is on TikTok? How often do you post? What are your thoughts around that?
I think there’s a lot of lore that you have to like just keep posting and that’s what’s to keep you successful. I don’t believe that that it matters. I believe that the quality of content is far more important than the quantity. And a lot of the times I’ve had to step back because I got burned out from creating content. And what I was trying to push out was just pushing out for the sake of pushing out, and it wasn’t good. And then when I took two weeks off, nobody cared. Everybody went on about their lives. It was okay. Came back, viral hits, and then people were fine. I mean, like, the harsh reality is is that no one’s sitting there missing Duolingo. Like, they’re not missing our app as much as I’d love to think they’re sitting there missing my TikTok content. Like, they’re not. Like, it’s five seconds of their day just as we consume other branded content. And taking that mindset and approach has helped me alleviate burnout, has helped me create great content, and also, like, not take myself so seriously.
Okay. so a, I think it’s not you and Duolingo. I think it’s everyone. I think we all overemphasize our own importance. importance. Like, no one will you miss you other than your mother and maybe friends, you know? Exactly. It’s okay. And even your mother’s probably not watching your TikTok. No offense. No.
Yeah, exactly.
My question is, we we also had YouTube shorts. We had Instagram Reels, and we had TikTok. Do we need to be on all channels? A lot of people and founders say to me, do I need to be on everything? And I say, no. Just be on one and be great at it. Do you agree or do you think you do need to be everywhere now?
I feel like I might have a different response to this because of our brand truth. So for us, I’m very adamant about having like one or two sentences of what you know you’re doing so that just becomes like the North Star for every single piece of content you put out there because it makes things just easier. So for us, like, the what we’ve established with our TikTok is language learning is hard, so we make it fun. Everything is to be judged against that human truth. Is it showing that we’re having fun? Does this seem fun and entertaining? Is the messaging we want give across with that truth? And then the other truth that we have is Duo is freaking everywhere. And that is what we want it to be, where Duo will stop at nothing for you to do your lesson. So for us, I want be on multiple platforms because those are true to my brand. However, I feel like once you know your human truths and what you know what your values are and your strategy is, then you can assess where you to be and where you to show up. But because Duo is everywhere and we want Duo to be everywhere, reminding you to do your lesson, that I’m be on every platform as much as I can to my best ability.
Bit of a shit question, isn’t it? I mean, like, I know I’m just like, I’m thinking about it because like, if you have a CFO platform for you know, B2B SaaS, you probably shouldn’t be Like, no, should probably be on one and be really good at LinkedIn. But like, everyone can learn a language. That was a terrible question.
I loved it. No, I loved it.
Thank you. My My question to you is, when you think about mistakes that you made in the early days, what do you think back on and go, ah, that was a big mistake that we made?
So candidly speaking, I think I never realized, especially, and I think this is a product
Intro
of being at a smaller company, being in Pittsburgh, a very slow, of sleepy town, is realizing when I push post, it’s actually going to 7.8 million people. That weight kind of gets lost in it when you’re on the Internet and you kind of, I always say it’s very easy to get lost in the sauce. You’re busy commenting, you’re busy creating viral content and it’s really easy to slip up and comment on the wrong thing or say the wrong thing. But candidly, I’ve commented on something that I probably shouldn’t have before and I got checked and balanced for that.
And it was one of the biggest learning moments where if I didn’t cross the line, I wouldn’t have known where the line was. That’s something I know we all experience when you’re growing up.
Okay, so that’s one. Any other mistakes where you’re like, ah, we shouldn’t have done that?
So I could tell you a funny story. and this was just me not realizing, but there was this trending audio at the time about My Little Pony and it was just like a normal, it wasn’t anything crazy, but we ended up having someone pose for it and do it and it ended up looking overtly sexual in a way that it shouldn’t have. And it was a very non sexual trend. So I was like, I don’t get it. Like, I don’t see what you’re talking about. Like, don’t you see it?
And at the time, I remember co messaging messaging me and being like, bro, come on. Like, you can’t post that. Take it down. And I think I was like, okay. Like, I was like, it’s still doing really viral and it’s doing really well, but we took it down because it’s like his brand at the end of the day. I think like that moment was like very much a moment of recognizing that just because I get it as Gen Z and I might get it as a trend doesn’t mean that’ll always translate across people.
So figuring out like the lesson there for me was like, if I believe in something that’s risky and has the potential to go viral, how do I figure out a way to convey that to people who may not look like me, may not do the same things as me, may not consume the same media as me, but still be on board with it? So I think looking back, yeah, it was a mistake. getting a message from your CEO at 9PM at night is never a great feeling, but also figuring out the learnings from it has been really helpful of how we keep pushing the boundaries in productive ways.
You’re like, oh, Louis, don’t worry about it, bro. It’s fine.
Yeah. And honestly, it’s funny because the candid truth about it is he does DM me and there’s these open conversations and he’s open to hearing pushback as well. There’s been times where he’s told us to take down a video and I was like, okay, cool. But what if I like change the audio, fix up the text a little bit, can I repost it? And he’s like, okay, fine. I think there’s that relationship that makes it feel I’m not alone and there’s people giving feedback and it’s not like me versus legal or me versus a CEO.
It’s very much everyone’s invested in our social doing well and everyone cares for it to do well. We just have to figure out the best way to go about it.
How do you think about doing well? And what I mean by that is, like, is it merely a case of view counts, likes? Is it a case of conversions to subscribers? How do you determine the success of content and TikTok today?
So our account, I think, first started off as just a brand awareness thing. Candidly, I didn’t have the resources, the time, or with being remote to actually create video content. I was in my home, so was like, right, how do I get Duolingo on TikTok? I’m just gonna start commenting. So I started commenting on videos and those started gaining traction. And I was like, right, like people wanna see something. And then we created videos. Now people had, when they clicked on a comment, they had something to go back to on our feed.
And short answer, 1 million views for us is like a viral video that is successful. That is what is like written down as like green check, great job. But I feel like the real measure of success for me was when I noticed that people were referencing Duolingo’s TikTok as like a home run machine or Duolingo’s TikTok as like things outside of like people who would normally care about Duolingo. Something that was really awesome to hear is like from our people team, like people were applying to work at Duolingo and like noting like our TikTok as the reason to be applying to work here.
And I think it’s moments like that where it’s like, sure, like we have our whole process for like converting users and doing all that fun stuff, but like the true mark of an iconic brand or like actually like making a difference is people are talking about you in their group chats. It’s like one of the main things you hear about your brand and it’s what people associate when they hear Duolingo. And I think for me, that was a success marker. Going on from that, when we first started, I didn’t have any OKRs attached to it. it. was more of just a test and learn experiment.
Now it’s like 1 million views is considered a viral account. I mean, a viral video. We have a how did you hear about us survey. So now TikTok is part of that. So if we have a viral video, we’ll actually see an uptick in users based off the timing of it and people saying, yeah, we heard about you from TikTok. So those are ways that we actually measure success. But in my head, I feel like being part of culture is far more relevant and far more impactful for me when I think about success.
Yeah. What would you say to founders who are like, I’m not sure about TikTok as a strategy because I just don’t know if it’ll actually convert to users. You might get a lot of followers. You might get a lot of likes, but I don’t know if it’ll actually convert to paying users. What would you say to them?
I would kindly and candidly say, does your happy Earth Day posts convert to users? We all have or most brands have social teams that are doing things on social that why not do this? Like, it feels like for us, it’s still a very, very low budget execution. Like, we’re not asking for thousands of dollars. Like, candidly, I would say about of our impressions are completely organic and they’re for the cost of like maybe Duo’s costume and like the sushi I had for dinner while filming and staying late a little bit.
And I think for me it’s like you can do things and be scrappy and still be iconic. You don’t have to be spending thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to convert people. Like, it’s possible to do it by just hitting them where they get it. And that’s also, again, circling back to what I said earlier, like that’s how you know you’ve hit a chord with that human truth that it is true. It’s not just you saying what people think about your brand. It’s the truth that connects it. and that’s kind of like the funnel that I’ve seen that if you have to create content, why not make it entertaining?
Why not make it something that people want consume? If innovation and all of this stuff could be bought, it would have been bought by billionaires ages ago. But the truth is, is, like a lack of money and lack of resources is what makes the creativity shine. And I’m a true believer in this. Like, anytime we did well, and I remember my boss being like, we might get more budget for this. I was like, no, like, I don’t want it. And I genuinely believe that lack of money is what inspires creativity.
And I think the young and the poor have that in abundance. So that’s probably why you see more innovation and stuff coming from younger people is because they have a lack of things. And for me, that’s what I found success in. I know everyone has their own take on that, but I would prefer less budget.
So we have, I don’t know, half a million listeners per show, whatever it is now, and a lot of people who listen want to do content and then go, I but I don’t know, we’re gonna do an agency, and this agency is blue tick. They are the best of the best, and they’re, you know, 25, grand $50 a month. You know the agencies, they are expensive. What would you advise them? Whether agency, whether not agency, how to make it work? Thoughts?
I would say the best content is only to be created by people who are champions of your brand and who have 110% attention to what you’re doing and care about what you’re doing. We have hired agencies. I’ll be honest, when we first launched our TikTok, we hired an agency to work with us before I was kind of in the weeds. Like, I was just kind of like observing or whatever. And the content didn’t hit, and it wasn’t until an internal team like me took over that it started to go more viral.
I think the truth about it, especially for Duolingo, is like these people are not mission driven. Like don’t have that same drive that all of us did for why we’re working at Duolingo. They may be in their own mission, but they’re not of Duolingo’s mission because they’re spread out across different teams, across different things. And there’s a certain connection that someone who works at a brand feels to their brand. Just as someone who works in agency probably feels to their agency, and you can’t recreate that very easily.
That has to be from someone within an internal. So my advice is pick up your phone, download the app, scroll on it for 10 minutes minutes, pick an audio, and just start filming.
Glad we’re aligned to that on agencies. Can I ask, is it challenging for you internally, if we’re honest? Like, when you have great success and you get 7 million followers, and then I mean this nicely, that like people want to interview you and you get a lot of followers and then your bosses and bosses are like, hang on a minute, I’m your boss. And they’re not asking to interview me. Is that a bit challenging?
While there are moments, of course, of frustration, I think the frustration more is that we’re just changing how things are done and what they’re used to. I don’t think it’s a matter of like jealousy or anger or like what’s going on. It’s more of just like growing pains of now we used to be this kind of not old school brand, but a brand that of did more traditional stuff. And now our whole mantra is being social first. So yeah, when like a 25 year old comes in and changes that, it’s not to be easy all the time.
There’s to be growing pains. There’s definitely moments and there’s tiffs and there’s moments where I feel like I have to demand respect. Sometimes people may think that it just I got lucky in some shape or form. I do think I got lucky in some shape or form. I think I worked for that luck.
Why do you think you got lucky?
Okay. So I grew up in a Muslim household and I always believed that everything has been given to me based off of the situations you’ve been in and the blessings you have. So that’s my personal thing. If you look back at it, I grew up in a family that was wonderful and supporting. I got to go to an awesome college. I got internships after that. Like, all of these were opportunities granted to me because of the access I had. And I’m very adamant about it that, like, other people could achieve exactly what I did.
I just also happen to be in the right place at the right time. and that is all about access and opportunity. And I know that also on the scale of like, I was also at a brand that allowed me to post trending audios. I was also at a brand that was okay with taking more risks than maybe a bigger brand might be. So these are all things that kind of lined up for me. And then where I stepped in as Zaria, where I’m proud of myself is I took advantage of what those things were there and how can I use this opportunity, how can I use this access to make something great?
That’s what the access I consider as like 20% luck and the other 80% is hard work and diligence. But I think it could replicated by anyone who’s given the same opportunity and access.
Now that’s really interesting because that was gonna be my question. You said about replication. I don’t think you’re right. I’ve been trying to hire great social teams for years. And weirdly, there’s this kind of strange thing which is like you hire amazing young people who get social. And then the minute that you put them in a job, they’re like, I’m thrilled to welcome Zaria. And they’re like, who the fuck writes like that? They talk like a company. And so I find that not enough people are able to move from Happy Earth Day to here’s Lipa and Duo.
Yeah.
How would you advise me on turning Happy Earth Day into rock star, creative, imaginative person?
I would say you have to hire troublemakers. I say that because I have been suspended before. I have been on the hot seat many times while in university. I remember in my interview at Duolingo when they asked if was there any questions you have. I was like, yeah, if you could do a presentation for minutes on anything that’s not about work, no notes, what would it be and why? And like questions that are just like things that are unexpected. I’ve been rejected from big brands for jobs when I was applying out of college because my resume, I can send it to you after this, but it’s definitely not a traditional resume.
It’s very different. It’s unhinged. And my whole life mantra was like, to be somewhere where I can just be Zaria in all corners of my life and all that I am, and I’m gonna take it and leave it. And I’ve gotten rejected from like, I remember I applied to Google, rejected, Microsoft rejected, it’s fine. that happens because I wasn’t meant to be there. And troublemakers are the ones that are causing seismic cultural shifts. Like, I believe they’re the ones that press the red button when most of us are too scared to press it ourselves.
And I say this with my boss, that I was talking about. I remember I used to push her and I was like, you just gotta trust me and I’m just to do it. And if you’re not okay with it, we’ll delete it, but I’m gonna do it. And I remember being like, I don’t know. And I was like, send. Moments like that where you need people who are willing to keep pushing the boundaries. And I get in trouble and it happens. And I get messages from CEOs and I get into little thorny situations at work.
It happens. But also great work comes from it. So I think it’s it’s what you choose to do with that.
Aren’t troublemakers obvious. And what I mean by that is we all know job interviews. You come and you say you love Shakespeare and that you play tennis on the weekend and you hide the fact that you, you know, maybe drink tequila and dance to Taylor Swift. Are they obvious when you interview and meet them?
I feel like I can tell because I would say our team is a team of troublemakers, and I think it’s because I grew up with that. And I feel like it’s more of people who don’t have traditional backgrounds and also people who are very upfront. I stan people who are like, I am who I am and I don’t give a fuck if you like it or not. And that is the energy I want. And I know it sounds unaccommodating and stubborn. I’ve been that way, but also to a certain extent, you need that energy to push things forward.
And I would also say troublemakers, if you’re looking for an easy pool to start of people who are pressing these red buttons, who are testing boundaries, is people with intersectional backgrounds. And I’m very adamant about this because I grew up, right, in a Pakistani household in a very white city in America. My entire life was figuring out how to balance both these cultures, both these groups, figure out how to please both. Because of that, I’d find myself kind push against up the wall sometimes, but I also know how to manage that pressure.
And I’m always saying that people from intersectional backgrounds, like, they go through the most, so they know how to handle the most.
Is it fictitious internally ever when you’re pushing red buttons and doing posts? Do you ever get other functions being like, you can’t do that? We had this campaign lined up for next week. We had this lined up. We didn’t plan on releasing that. Does it cause tension between functions?
Yeah, it does, candidly. But I think that’s natural and I think tension is required for growth. So I think the way that I approach it is like more of, right, I know this caused you 10 like tension. Let’s talk about it. Like, let me know about it. Like, I remember, for example, when threads was a thing for like, 0.2 seconds, seconds, we posted a photo of, like, Big Bird. I don’t even remember what we said as the comment, but it was, like, Duo, Big Bird or whatever.
And at the time, we had a kids app, and someone from the team was like, yo, like, it’s a kids app. You can’t post, Like, I think it was something like us, like, swooning over Big Bird, But they’re like, you can’t post that. Like, they’re from blah, blah, blah, And I get these messages all the time. I remember we’ve talked about making, like, a social media, like, thing where people can anonymously say their issues with what we’re doing. But I think that’s okay. I think those moments of discussion and tension are important for people to understand social, for understand what does well.
You have to have thick skin. I know I’ve grown with thick skin, but it’s important and I’m okay with it.
couple of things there. Do you take down posts that don’t do well? Sometimes people say, oh, it it looks bad if you have the historical view and there’s like some that are real duds. Do you take them down?
I think it depends. we have before. If it’s been like really freaking bad, then yeah, but I think it’s more of a like a judgment on that. but not not usually. We of just keep it up.
And did you ever go through a trough of disillusion? I remember with us, we had like a period of a month or two where like none of our videos hit. None. And it was hard. Did you ever have that?
I feel like I’m going through that right now, so I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, it happens. And I feel like the biggest thing is to not take it personally. I think sometimes I think my alter ego is literally a green bird and taking a step backward to be like, no, you are Zaria. This is your nine to five, and it is okay if everything is not a smashing hit. I think that’s been a very helpful way to kind disconnect from it.
To what extent do you find that real time is the most important? And what I find by mean by that is, like, if it’s news, it’s got a much higher chance of hitting than, like, inspirational quote or wise piece of wisdom. News is what hits, I find. Yeah. Like a joke on Ryan Reynolds being at a football game or a joke on Dua Lipa at a concert, and it’s like, happened last week. and now there’s the video and here we go. Do you see what I mean?
Yeah, that definitely I think, yeah, cultural moments has had way more impact than, like, regular scheduled programming. And we really try to adjust for that too. Like, we have this saying with our social team that we have our calendar ish of, like, what we to post, what we’re thinking of, but everyone has a veto card. If they’re like, this is super relevant and needs to get out today, I’m pulling my veto card. And those are things that we have in our team to make sure we’re pushing out content that feels culturally relevant and feels like Duo’s on top of the game.
That’s so interesting. I think we’re shit at structuring our content planning. How do you structure your content planning?
It’s very loosey goosey. The way we go about it is we know that social is very much dependent on trends, so we never really plan more than like two weeks out. And even two weeks is like a bit of a stretch. And pretty much every Monday, I go through the week and see like how many pieces of content we’re thinking of doing. And just Monday through Friday, we’ll assign people like, right, Lily, you’re gonna be doing two trending videos this week. Figure it out. Mel, you have this one campaign scheduled.
Is it okay if it goes live on Wednesday? X, y z. And then say in the middle of the week, all of a sudden Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are trending. Okay, Mel, sorry, we’re not posting that. We’re posting about this. Tweet about this. And I think the mindset is no one is too precious about what content they’re creating. Everyone is just down to do whatever and do whatever will go viral. So people are fine with pushing their stuff back or having to jump in and think of creative copy or just kind of work together to make viral moments happen.
What do you think is the hardest thing about content today? Like, for me, it’s balancing that shit. We can just copy what works and get pretty good hits. Or actually, we can try and be different, try and be creative, and maybe flop badly.
I think the hardest thing is as creatives, we’re very personally attached to what we put out in the world, and it’s very hard to take critique. It’s very hard to, like, look back at ourselves, and I think something that I’m going through right now is like a lot of people are like, Duolingo’s always been successful and like Duolingo’s this and that, which is so true and it’s so great. But right now, we’re kind of in a rough patch, like, with our content. Like, we’re trying to figure out how to, like, go on YouTube shorts, how to make things viral, and being able to remove the personal and take the critical feedback and figure out ways to be innovative is the most tough thing for me.
Like, it feels like it’s always like a goose chase when you think you got it right, you have to start from square zero again. And I think it’s a very humbling feeling. I think it keeps us nimble and I think it also keeps us empathetic to like being adjustable and adaptable, which I think is the most important skill any human being can have. But yeah, I think it’s that personal attachment and being able to just like pivot is probably the hardest thing.
I think also like knowing who you are. Does that make sense? it’s so easy to just copy your we both know them. They’re ton of influencers And we can all make hits like them. I’m not being rude. It’s kind of easy to do. But that’s not what Duolingo is about.
I think that goes back to the North Star. Like, language learning is hard, so we make it fun. And every piece of content will have some mention of that. And like, I know a lot of people are like, well, I didn’t see language learning in this Dua Lipa thirst trap. And the way that we kind of approach that is the strategy that I love to call candy to the medicine, where essentially the candy is to be the Lipa Thirst Trap. But the medicine, you might find it in the comment section.
You might find it in the caption of us being like doing, mentioning something about our app, mentioning something about language learning in fun and innovative ways. So like, for example, the Lipa Thirst trap, I remember one of our comments being like, the only stuff you’ll find on Duolingo Plus or like super Duolingo. And that is like, right, like we just kind of plugged our premium app and now people are into it. That’s the medicine to the candy and I feel like that’s a really important way of approaching content today.
The final one. you said before about, hey, just download the app, about seconds, use it, engage. I agree. For founders, CEOs who think and to engage with TikTok, do they need someone dedicated to it as a channel or can it be Sarah who loves TikTok and is just passionate about it?
It should be Sarah who loves TikTok and is passionate about it.
Even if she’s not in marketing or she’s in a different space.
Yep, A 100%. My dream is to hire a stand up comedian for my team. Like, candidly, I think people who are removed from marketing, who are removed from content creation, who just exist and love the content for what it is are probably going help your brand go further than those with specific marketing training. And I believe the marketing training can be taught, but that natural ideation machine that connects with video content sometimes just comes from someone who doesn’t even know what marketing is.
Who are your favorite accounts?
Okay. On Twitter, I love the New Jersey State Department, and I think they have really funny tweets. On TikTok. I love Scrub Daddy. I’m a big Scrub Daddy stan, but we also do, like a lot of content with them. So I just, like that’s why we’ve done content with them just because I love what they do. And then in general, like, just fun content that not necessarily is on TikTok but is more long form is liquid death. I just, I love liquid death.
mean they’ve done such a good job. I totally agree with you there. I also love the what I eat in a days. You know those ones? I I can’t get enough of what I eat now. Like what I know you’re like, no you don’t. Wow.
That’s send
I always always send it to my mother like, wow. wow. That and recipes. I love watching. I never cook, but I just watch people
Listen, we’re all in the same boat. I love streamers. I think it’s funny watching people play games. I just think it’s so funny to me, and I don’t know why. I don’t game. I don’t do any of it, but just the concept that somebody could be engaged with me playing a game. Like, that to me is just wild, but alas.
What’s your favorite brand? Like, mine is Chanel. Timeless, elegant, crosses geographies, incredible. What’s your favorite brand?
You know, if I’m being so honest with you, I don’t really care about brands. Like, I admire a brand like that. I love Gani because I love their clothes. I love Costco because I love shopping there, but it’s more of like stuff like that. don’t think. and as a marketing person, I feel like I know I should have a perspective on that, but I think for me, it’s like, I just love people who make great work And I think not one brand has nailed that every time and time again.
I think we all kind of bring our own pieces of that forward.
Costco is one that I was not expecting. It’s much cheaper than Chanel though, So like, well done. I to move into a quick fire. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?
Yeah, let’s do it.
So tell me, which company social in terms of like B2B or like startup company do you most respect on social? Could be across anything. You’re like, they’ve done a good job.
Scrub Daddy.
Fair. Is it harder or easier now to win at social and content?
Harder.
Why is it harder? Because the tools are there, but it’s harder to be found, I think.
Everyone’s jumped on the bandwagon now, so standing out is getting tougher and tougher
What worries you most today about social and content?
Candidly, I worry about TikTok being banned. content wise. I worry that I’ll not be able to come up with more like, content that lives beyond a trend, if that makes sense.
Does it need to?
I think at times I feel it does. I feel that’s what will distinguish you between a trend when TikTok becomes irrelevant of how can you translate it across. And so storylines, think, stress me out of like, what is actually hitting the cord with people That’s a storyline that they can resonate with and understand.
Do you measure cross promotion? So a million views on a TikTok, do you measure the impact that that has on Instagram following or YouTube or not so much in terms of that cross promotion.
We haven’t seen direct correlation. if I’m being honest, I would say more of like a million view thing on TikTok might actually have more correlation with like app downloads, but it kind stays within its own little realm. We used to see people on Twitter, they would repost TikToks that we’d have, and then we’d see some more followers on Twitter. But Twitter’s of gone to shit. So since then.
Are you seeing LinkedIn just like spike in terms of engagement?
I actually stay on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn, but I use it more for like my personal stuff than I would actually for Duolingo. But I also yeah, hot take. Gen Z is showing up more on LinkedIn. So
Unbelievable. No engagement is through the roof. Final one for you. Why do you want be in in this such a like job interview question, but like troublemaker hat on, Where would you to be in 10 years time?
I would like to be working a nine to five and stagnant. And I’m saying that because I feel like there’s this pressure for us to constantly grow and to dream to be a CMO and to dream to keep going bigger and bigger But I to be at a place where I’m happy, where I have a good work life balance and my work is not my life. I don’t know if that’s a hot take. I personally have no ambitions of being a CMO or going higher. I’m content and happy with where I am.
Do you not feel the need to the next thing? I I don’t understand that. When you’re on the treadmill, you’re on the treadmill. No,
No. I feel like, like, my value of where I enjoy and love doing things does not come from work. And being on the treadmill of life feels more of doing stuff for my personal benefit and personal gain and like things that enlighten me and like, I’m happy. like I’m okay with where I’m at. And I feel like maybe in five years that’ll change. Maybe I’ll to grow more, but like I’m okay just existing and being and that is my mantra right now. So I don’t have any crazy ambitions for the 10 years.
Maybe I’ll be retired. That’s my dream. My dream is to be retired.
Listen, I’ve loved doing this. Thank you so much. That’s probably the best answer that I’ve ever had and the most honest to where would you to be in years? Normally it’s very different, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
As a complete content nerd, I just absolutely love doing that show. It’s incredible to see what Zaria has done by scaling Duolingo’s TikTok to where it is today. If you to see more behind the scenes, of course you can on YouTube by searching for 20VC. VC. But before we leave you today,
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